WHAT'S THE 411 ON THIS ARTICLE?
He went for the kiss - got the cheek but that wasn't his only issue with this STRUCTURED girl.
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READER'S QUESTION
Hey Doc,
A little war story. I need your verification and coaching.
I’m 32 and I took a 22-year-old out (Red Flag). I am attracted to Riley’s beauty and youth. After a couple back and forth on the dating website, we had a good Starbucks date and I got her number at the end. I called her a week later and set up a date. She sounded happy to hear from me and gave me her address to pick her up. So far, so good.
On the dinner date, Riley talked about her exes and I gently tried to change the subject on multiple occasions. I kept thinking, “I don’t want to hear about all the dudes this girl has been through.” But she kept bringing it up, so I went along with it and figured I could at least learn why she got rid of them and verify “The System,” which it did.
After she spilled her guts, Riley expected me to do the same. I’m thinking, “I have to get off these negative subjects.” So I gave her a couple of jokes: “You’re my first date,” and “The girls I dated in the past weren’t as good as you...so far,” etc. Anyway, Riley kept after me, so I gave her a little more, but not much. Then she switched to “What do I want in a future relationship?” And I answered “A Flexible Giver.”
At one point, Riley asked how many times a boyfriend and girlfriend should hang out per week. I said two to three. Well, she ended the date right then and there. She said she wouldn’t bother dating a guy unless they hung out five times per week. Needy? Insecure? I couldn’t figure it out.
We got up and left and I knew I was most likely dead in the water due to a combination of not being able to get off the heavy subjects, her attitude, not understanding romantic love, and being in a rush to figure me out.
On the drive back to her place (she lives with her mom), she acted a little more playful so I thought maybe I wasn’t dead, so I went in for the kiss at the doorstep. She pulled her head to the side and I ended up kissing her cheek. Then she hugged me hard and pressed her cheek into my lips a bit, but it still felt like a rejection.
I thanked Riley for the fun time and walked back to my truck. As I was walking she called, “Don’t take yourself so seriously.”
Questions: what did she mean by that last comment? And should I call this girl again in five to nine days? I’ve been on a roll with like 20 different dates in the last couple of months and all have gone well, but this young hottie has me a bit confused.
Tiny - who is ready to move on if you give me the word
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DOC'S ANSWER
Hi Tiny,
Taking a 22-year-old out IS your first Red Flag! You at the age of 32 should be with someone 26 years old or older. Riley simply isn’t grown up yet. All men love youth and beauty -- what men don’t?
But it’s really great that you tried to steer the talk away from negatives and past romances. For some reason, lots of women think that when they go out on a first date they’re supposed to talk about all their exes, as if being open about all the losers they were with will somehow endear them to the new guy, when the last thing in the world he wants to hear about is her former boyfriend.
What Riley gave you was what I call the HARD INTERVIEW. To you Psych majors, young girls, 18 to 20, and women 30 to 34, subject you to it because they are in a rush to have babies.
When Riley asked you how many times a boyfriend and girlfriend should see each other per week, you should just have said ....
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WHAT DO YOU THINK?
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Brilliant as always Doc. Thanks for the fine analysis, especially the last part about the girl pinning her issues on the guy. Have experienced this first hand from young girls.
Quick remark Doc. I am 27, and I don’t like to invest time in a long shot, like you taught me Doc, but if girls who are young, 20-23, just happen to be there, I figure “Why not ?”.
Is it a problem, if I don’t waste more than 5 minutes getting the number and only cheap 20-30 minute coffee dates ?
Nothing ventured, nothing gained ?
I always tell guys to keep practicing – the only way to find Ms. Right is to be “in the mix” so-to-speak but just realize the odds are against you. You’d be better off with 23 or older – and even better would be in the 24-25 range but again, if you know up front your odds are long and you don’t spend a ton of time or money then it’s no issue.
Thanks for writing.
Hey Doc, in your book I recall the part about not kissing on the first date, unless you’re certain of her low interest level, in that case, go for the kiss on the 1st date to force her hand and give her an opportunity to prove you wrong. Is that what tiny was trying to do there?
It could be – but it was all doomed from the start with the age difference plus her structured attitude during the date. Thanks for writing me!
Hi Doc,
So, the coffee date does NOT count as the first date? I’ve been kissing on the first date AFTER that – no cheeks yet – but I flushed the number of one woman who rushed a hug and quickly went inside. It’s good to have that clarified.
Thanks, Denny
It goes:
1. Coffee Date (see if you get touched and if she’s open to being with you)
2. First big date – again you look for signs that she likes you leading up to….
3. Second big date – this is where you apply the “kiss test”
If she really likes you after the coffee date and first big date it will drive her crazy that you aren’t like 90% of the other guys trying to kiss her
I hope this helps – thanks for writing
I have to wonder if this girl still would’ve given him the ‘hard interview’ if she’d been more attracted to him to begin with. Women tend to test guys less when their interest level is really high from the get go.
SP,
How true – thanks for weighing in!
“Tests” like this are really a way for a woman to say to herself “I’m not really sold on this guy as he is, so if he does a good enough job answering my questions I might give him a chance.” But there’s no point dating someone who’s lukewarm about you.
If I were the guy who wrote in, I would’ve said to her halfway thru her ‘interview’ something like “you know, you seem like a nice person, I just don’t think we have much in common. It was nice meeting you” and got up and left. (I’d give her some cab fare money since he drove her there.)
There’s just no point dragging out a date with someone who’s not that attracted to you. I just don’t think this guy saw that was actually happening.
SP,
It’s good to end the date – you’re right on – but not good to come out and tell her “we don’t have much in common” because why give her any insight into what you’re thinking? Just find a place to naturally end the date by saying you have a busy day at work coming up and then drive her home. By coming out and making a statement that it’s not working out and then giving her cab fare home it’s like you’re telegraphing your upset with her hard interview.
Remember – never let them see you sweat – you know that you’re done with her but no sense in letting her know that – you’ll just disappear after dropping her off!
I see your point. I might draw the line a little differently at under what circumstances it’s ok to be honest/upfront, and I wouldn’t necessarily say that it’s “being upset” if you tell her you don’t have much in common. But I get why you see it that way.
SP,
I see where you’re coming from but remember that THE SYSTEM is an efficiency program and it’s not very efficient to invite a big discussion with her. She might just accept what you’re saying and then agree with you – but then again she might start to argue with you or question you. Why go there? What’s the point? You’ve already made up in your mind that you will never see her again so telling her what you’re thinking at all is a waste of time.
Doc Love is excellent, what a genius the world will lose once he leaves the earth. I must admit the subjects he handles so easily as a pro have me dumbfounded at times. He should add everything on a website so that future generations don’t lose the lessons.
Thanks for the kind words – I have added my radio show archives since 2011 here: http://www.docloveclub.com – only $10/month with LOTS of extras
Doc love;
You’re the BOSS man…to hell with the rest.
Karl,
Thank you for the support
Doc,
I’m 22 years old and I’ve been taking this 18 year old girl out on dates. I met her at a football game and asked for her number as I was leaving. She responded with “Definitely, we should hang out some time!” I felt her high interest level. I waited 5 days before calling and asked her out for a specific day and time.
We had a blast dancing and she was doing most of the talking. I waited another 6 days before asking her out for the second date the next week. On this date she was still doing 80% of the talking and asking lots of questions to me, to which I responded with short answers and joked and then asked her other questions, trying to keep her talking most of the time. On the third date, she was laughing, talking, and now also touching my arm (which she hadn’t done on previous dates) I dropped her off but didn’t go for the kiss. Maybe I chickened out, I don’t know what it was. After reading the comments to this article, I realize maybe I should have gone for the kiss on the second date?
In The System you talk about waiting longer if you know she wants to be kissed to increase the anticipation. I can tell she has interest level, but I’m not sure when to go for the kiss. I can’t tell if she’s been dropping hints to kiss her (she wasn’t looking at my lips or anything like that), or if I should even be anticipating her dropping hints at all- However, I’ve noticed that by following the system, a lot of girls will drop hints and try to hold my hand, things like that when they are wanting to be kissed.
Anyways, I just completed a 4th date with her and her interest level was still pretty good. However, I realized I was telling her more about myself than normal (probably due to my high interest level- shame on me!) What I should have done was joking it off and asking her more questions about herself. I’m not sure if I’m out of the game now because I haven’t gone for the kiss by now or if I lowered her interest level by telling her a lot about myself. How long should I wait before satisfying her questions about me and telling her more about myself? Is there a general rule for when I am allowed to tell her more about me? Or should I just constantly be trying to have her do the talking? I know that her asking me questions is a sign of her interest but again, I’m not sure if I should ALWAYS be mysterious or is there a time that is okay to tell her more about myself? Also- is it worth it for me to ask her out again if I haven’t gone for the kiss by now…
We are both students and have finals next week and then a month off from school. I’m not sure if I should wait till after the break to call her now or should I try and get one more date for next week before the break?
There is a lot of complexity to your story so you should really call http://www.datingwomenradioshow.com so I can properly diagnose it. She continues to accept dates so go out with her BUT as I tell you in THE SYSTEM you go for the kiss no later than the second date – not because of her – but because you want to TEST HER INTEREST LEVEL and going for a kiss is the only way to do that. I do think you need coaching from me so please call the show at your next opportunity and thanks for writing.
Hi Doc i know this is an old article but i had to say something.
In my experience there is a lot of structured women out there far more than clinically sane flexible givers. Number one when i say “Your my first date i guess you recognize the fact that im a little shy”
and other funnies like when i told her i work as an IT specialist she is like “What level of education you finished for that” I knew right there she was looking for an educated guy so i pulled ” I finished elementary school” She is like you must be so smart then and i told her i happen to be more charming than smart and i winked at her lol Anyway alot of them do not like comic teasing or a bit of sarcasm.
Another one told be are you being sarcastic and gets mad on the first date. They also do not like the 5-9 day rules. This is mostly online but its the only place im able to date women at my age 39 most of them have boyfriends or married. Dancing salsa, conventions, work ,clubs all say no when ask for the number. Only an occasional ugly one will give me her number. Online i dated quite a few good looking but structured. Im not ugly and workout. I should tough it out and one day right Doc.
Nick – thanks for your thoughts and all you need is one good woman – she’s out there. Your dates are nothing but practice for Ms. Right – hang in there.
if a woman interrogates you on a first date it means she is 1) rigid 2) not open minded 3) not easy going.
How so?
Because by interrogating you she tries to see if you fit into some kind of mold of her own making. She does not want to waste her time on a ‘wrong’ candidate and therefore – complicated questionnaire.
Im with Doc Love here – stay away from this kind of women. Even if you were to pass her ‘test’ initially, she would be difficult to live with later. Guaranteed.
Great take – thanks for writing
why is she out? Where does it says that her interest level is below 50?
When they won’t kiss you it’s assumed it’s below 50% – we call it the “kiss test” in THE SYSTEM
When we ask a lady out the first time, do we tell them it is a date? Or do we just ask them out with the time and location, and not say anything else?
In my ultra conservative Asian society, many people still believe a date is only a date when boyfriends and girlfriends agree to spend time together. Anything else like Starbucks or having dinner with a lady we just met is merely “hanging out with a friend”.
I disagree with this belief as I think the intent of the “meet-up” is ultimately similar. A single man and a woman agrees to spend time together to know each other, with the possible intent of getting together in future.
There fore, I feel that we do not have to spell it out to a woman so clearly that we want to date them. I believe in their hearts, whether consciously or subconsciously, they do know that when a man ask them out for time alone, it is with the intent of getting together.
Any views on this doc?
I think something like this is best left for a call on the show – http://www.datingwomenradioshow.com or via phone coaching at https://www.doclove.com/phone_coaching – this is something where I’d need to go back and forth with you.